Following is the full transcript of the June 28th, 2021 Hudson event titled The Transformation of Japan’s Security Strategy
Kenneth Weinstein: Hello, I'm Kenneth Weinstein, Walter P. Stern Distinguished Fellow at Hudson Institute. I am absolutely delighted to welcome you to today's event, the transformation of Japan's Security Strategy, featuring State Minister for Defense Yasuhide Nakayama. The declaration by Japanese Defense Minister Nobuo Kishi that Japan would not set defense expenditures to 1% of GDP, but would instead peg spending to security threats, marks the latest development in the evolution of Japanese strategic thinking. Minister Kishi's announcement followed nine years of increased defense spending in response to China's military modernization, its increasingly aggressive assertion of territorial claims in the East and South China seas, as well as regular Chinese and Russians incursions into Japanese airspace. And, of course, the continued threat posed by North Korea's nuclear missile program.
What does this transformation signal for the future of Japanese security strategy? We're very fortunate to have State Minister of Defense Nakayama, the number two in Japan's defense ministry, an outspoken friend of the United States and a well-known and forthright voice for Japanese national security in his own right with us today. Nakayama-sensei, a native of Osaka, was first elected to Japan's Diet in 2003. He's served in numerous critical foreign and defense policy roles, including as Vice Minister for Foreign affairs, Director of the Liberal Democratic Party's National Defense Division, as Senior Director of the Special Committee on North Korea Abductions and a State Minister for Foreign Affairs before becoming State Minister for Defense in 2020.
I should note that this is not his first Hudson Institute appearance. He was a member of the International Visitors Program as a much younger man and specifically asked to visit Hudson Institute, then headquartered in Indianapolis, where he spent time with our research team to discuss national security issues. State Minister Nakayama will offer opening remarks and I will have the opportunity to pose questions to him afterwards. Mr. State Minister, welcome back to Hudson Institute. Thank you so much.
Minister Nakayama: Good morning from Tokyo, Japan. And thank you very much for explaining my biography. And I'm really glad that... Can I call you, Ken, because it's a very familiar name in Japanese? It's actually the Japanese name, Ken. So I'm really delightful and very glad that the Hudson Institute invited me to this conference. And it is very great honor for me to join Hudson Institute because Ken already told about my story. When I was 20s, I was invited as an international visitors program from the United States government, Department of State program. And I requested to visit Hudson Institute because when I was that age, I was always watching “The Hidaka Report” in Japan and I was really interested in his report. And I searched his [Yoshiki Hidaka] bio he is the team of the Hudson Institute. So I request DoS to introduce me to the Hudson Institute headquarters.
And I thought Hudson Institute is in Washington DC, but actually doesn't. The head office is in Indianapolis. So I went there and I really enjoyed staying in Hudson Institute and I met with the President (Herb) London at that time. I was really surprised that London is in Indianapolis. So anyway, so now I'm getting older. I was born in 1970, so this year I will going to be 51 and now I'm in politics in Japan and I am sitting here in the Ministry of Defense. And so today it's a very great day that I have to thank to the Hudson Institute and I have to share our knowledge and also a small experience of myself.
And I again I'm really glad and very, very honorable to sitting here with Hudson institute's event. So, thank you very much again, arigato gozaimasu. So first I'd like to talk about what is happening around Japan. And also, I can say that what's happening and the situation has been changed, is not a concern or the problem or issue that the Japan only have. The issue that I'm going to tell you is also, think it's a very big matter of the not just the United States of America, but also the Europe or allies in the world. So first I'd like to show you this map. So this map shows you the range of JL-2 missiles and also JL-3 missiles. It's a missile range, easy to understand.
So this is Japan, my country. This is the North America, Canada and the United States, Washington, DC. And so you can see the Red Submarine here. This is what we call, South China Sea. So the Chinese naval activities is, actually, they are getting more power. And also they are investing lots of budget, focusing on specially to the maritime businesses and that means the submarines. And of course it's a nuclear submarines. And they used to have JL-2 missiles, which is range about 8,0000 kilometers. And so if the Chinese submarine launched missile from JL-2 for this direction, which means your house direction, maybe Honolulu, it's in the range and sometime Alaska, sometime West Coast, it can reach to your place. It's a possibility.
But actually, 2020, last year, which we tried to have a Olympics and Paralympics in Tokyo, but unfortunately the virus came out from the Wuhan, China and expands and took lots of lives from all over the world. And I send our condolences to who lost their lives by this tragedy, the disaster of the pandemic. So anyway, 2020, the Chinese PLA planned it to create the new missiles, updating missiles called JL-3 missiles. So what about the JL-3 missiles? JL-2 range, it's about the Honolulu which I told you already. But JL-3, it's getting more range they can get. So even the East Coast, the White House in Washington, DC, it's already in the aiming of the target range of the JL-3 missiles. So if the Chinese submarine dive into the water of the South China Sea area and if they use these missiles towards the United States, means they are already possible to aim for the East Coast and the White House.
So I think those kind of situation is a fact why the United States, the former President, Donald Trump, is so strongly feel like upset. And also he has to tough negotiation between the Chinese, Xi Jinping. I think it looks like only a tech issue, the 5G issue. But also 5G means future techniques like on the internet or the AI. If you talk about AI with China, there's two meanings of the AI. One is an artificial island in the South China Sea, the other AI is the artificial intelligence, which we need a moral when we create those technology. So I think the former administration is also consider about what the China's next movement or step for step towards the world.
And now the President Joe Biden administration actually he against with Donald Trump strongly during the campaign or even after the campaign. But honestly speaking, I think the foreign policy of the United States government is getting more stronger compared to Donald Trump foreign policy. And actually Joe Biden's administration updating the base of the Donald Trump foreign policy, especially towards China and also the Asia region. And also the when our former administration, Shinzo Abe, former Prime Minister, present to all over the world leaders about the FOIP, which is a Free Open Indo-Pacific concept. And Donald Trump for the former president, strongly follow and catch up about the Shinzo Abe's policy, which is FOIP.
And even the present administration, Joe Biden's administration are also following this concept. So as a Japanese politician, I would like to say thank you very much the United States and U.S. and Japan strong strengthening to the foreign policy issues, especially against this kind of threat and concern for the both country and also the entire world has to be think together. And we have to solve those issues together and not just the Japan or U.S., but if you look at the north side, you can see not the United States, Canada, but also the EU countries, all the European countries, including the aim and the range of the new missile from the Chinese PLA threat.
And also there is another movement on the issue of the Earth, which means if you look at the Chinese activities around Japanese soil or the access water or the air defense, when you're focusing on, you can see the China and Russia collaborating together when they doing some military exercise around our neighbors. And actually right now, the Russians military activity in the Northern Territory of Japan, actually, they are doing using the troops more than 10,000 troops in the Northern Territory of Japan. And this kind of activity or the military exercise is really a pressure to the Japanese citizens so that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan yesterday, we claim to the Russian ambassador and also the Russian embassy. And also the bombers flew over our sky and nearby and they flew over and across our territorial sky. They crossed the border above our sky last year.
And so those kind of activities between the Russians and also the Chinese military exercises, they are increasing the situation and the numbers. And so that is our concern and our surrounding the situation right now. And those Russia, the former Soviet Union threat or what we call the cold war during the 20th century, in this 21st century, still continuously doing the same kind of, how do you call it, the situation or the balance still continuously in this 21st century also.
And also we have another concern. If you look up on the sky, which means space, outer space and you can see next slide. This slide shows you that the satellite activities from the China. And so the Chinese space agency launched lots of satellites more than the United States in the future. And so the space field warfare is also escalating, I guess. And what the concern is the Chinese satellite is, I think, it's not a very friendly satellite which provide the TV, satellite TV waves or something like that. The United States satellite and our satellite is a very peaceful. Our satellite never killed another satellite, but the Chinese satellite actually kills another satellite, what we call the killer satellite. It exist in the outer space. And also the Chinese space agency and military forces, they launched their own satellite and then the next they launched another satellite. And another satellite shoot down the former satellite which they launched. And when it explodes all over the outer space, lots of space debris, how do say, spread out to the space field.
So those Chinese satellite space debris, very quick, very speedy to there is a possibility to hit another healthy satellite from, for example, from NASA or from JAXA or whoever the country who launched the satellite in the space. There is a possibility to get injured. So we the country or the democratic country especially, and also we the country who is really interested in and also we get the profits from the space have to think how to hedge the risk of the space debris made by China. And actually we have to protect from the missile from somewhere, we cannot provide the solutions without GPS. Even the automotive cars, you have car navigation system inside of your. So if satellite damaged all the waves provided from the outer space is going to stop and this will affect to the very big damage to the economy to the all over the world.
So I would like to say that the Chinese space agency or the PLA activity in the outer space have to be safe activity and please behave what you are doing in outer space. It's concerning all the space agency from the world. And now the Japanese Ministry of Defense collaborating with the Japanese startups from the universities or from the private sectors that we have to collaborate some of those kind of issue from the outer space. So which means we are collecting some seeds from the startups. They are now selling the system of how to collect those space debris, not from just the Chinese activities, but also the another space debris to collect and clean, make it clean in outer space, which means healthy space. So those kind of sectors we have to create and we have to pioneering those kind of new tech which based which is going to become a basic of the outer space activities.
And also, finally this is a very famous GPS photo. So this is the South China Sea. You can see Philippines and ASEAN countries around. This is the South China Sea. But there is a lot of artificial island made by China during the Obama administration. And for example, this is one of the biggest reef, biggest reef in 2014 in the South China Sea. But 2015, one year later, the Chinese destroy all the reef, all the environment, natural environment. They ignore the natural environment and turn into those kind of manmade islands. And this, 2020 now, they already made almost four kilometers runway for the military base. So those kind of destroying and ignore the natural resources of the Earth and creating the new base for the military base inside of the South China Sea, it's not understandable for the all the Asian free and democratic country. This is a big, big threat, not just for us in Asian people, but also the concern of even the American citizens or the European countries.
So that's why all the European countries and also, of course, the United States, the armed forces now coming forward and together, exercising in the Asia. And so those kind of exercise, I think, it's we can show the deterrence towards the country who is doing what I told you, those kind of very dangerous activities. And so if you look them up, this is the United States and this is my country, Japan, Pacific Ocean. And now, one more thing we have the Honolulu here. You know that 70 years ago we attack Pearl Harbor. But now U.S. and Japan is a very good allies. Like it's one of the best allies in the all over the world. And we can together preparing for that and the defense for the [inaudible 00:23:47] if something, enemies' activities or other even evils coming to attack our nation or our citizens, we have to protect together.
And but if you look at the news from Zvezda, which is a Russian report, the news from the Russian military, they are actually exercising now just right in front of the Honolulu. And there are battleships, nuclear submarines and big airplanes. And they are really exercising just right in front of the western part of Honolulu. And so I don't want to remind the 70 years ago, but we have to be careful of the exercising of the Russians. They are taking the place, the western side of the Honolulu, the Hawaii. And in Hawaii there is a seven fleet and also in the PACOM, the headquarters in Hawaii. And we now yesterday, the White House, the United States government also made a comment about Hong Kong. The Apple Daily is closed. And I'm so sorry for them to that they cannot say no more free word, no more expression. The Hong Kong people cannot loudly speak out.
And if somebody who lives in Hong Kong, they claim to the Beijing or Xi Jinping easily to arrest or they're kidnapped by the somebody, I don't know, but it's already reported in the news even. So China after the 1997, the Hong Kong back to China but unfortunately, the Chinese government said they are going to do one state, two systems that actually they broke the promise. And so I really worried about Hong Kong or Uyghurs. The human rights is one of the biggest issue, that there is no freedom. If I look at the news from the all over the world. So I really want to want that the United States and who agree about the human security or humanitarian aid or human rights issue have to be think together and act together. And we have to let's hear the voices from the suffering from those kind of oppression, from some kind of the country or government, what we called autocrats or the autocratic governments.
So I'm personally thinking about and focus those issues. And so one more last thing I'm watching carefully is a Taiwan issue. So The Wall Street Journal reported my opinion as are their opinions about I told about, how to say, red line of the 21st century of the Asia is Taiwan Strait. So we have to protect the Taiwan as a democratic country. In 1970s we were born. At that time, the United States policy and also the all over the world think and tried the China, it's going to be become one. So it said one China policy as you know. It's a history, one of the page of the big, big history book. But the decision of at that time and now since the 1970s, and now it's 50 years later what happening and the results of the 50 years ago decision making or the people or the person in power at that time, the decision makers? Was it right or it's good? I don't know, the future kids generation, if they become adult, they are going to, I think, judge the historical moment from the political point of view.
So I'd like to say is democratic country, have to protect the democratic country and allies. And if you look at the cyberspace, cyber intelligence or the cyber security... I was attend the White House cyber security conference, I was attend European security conference on cybers. And when I attended both meetings, I felt there is a new type of Cold War already exists in the cyber field. China, Russia, they want to control everything on cybers, even the citizens living in their countries. And the United States or Japan or the allies of the democratic countries using the internet field as a freedom field and also the internet is the trigger and also the spring to increasing economy for each own country's GDPs. So I think don't kind of, how to say, the teams difference between the autocrats, autocratic governments country team or friendship group and also the U.S., Japan or the European Union, the freedom and democratic groups is already there is a some kind of the veil, I mean, the some kind of war that you cannot see but you can feel it that there is a really divided society. It is in cyber freedom.
So it takes a little bit long to talk about my fear of my personal opinion and sharing with very great think tank, number one think tank in the world called Hudson Institute. And I really respect you and I respect the think tank. And also the United States is our allies and our ancestors fought against each other but because of that, we lost the lives. We had lots of tears from our ancestors and the friends and the families but because of that now the 21st century, Japan and the United States is the most strong allies and trust friends. Any other cannot compete or compare. So again, thank you very much for this opportunity and I'm sorry to the audience hearing my pity English, but I personally doing my best effort because I love Hudson Institute. So thank you very much again and arigato.
Kenneth Weinstein: Well, thank you so much, State Minister Nakayama, for those incredible remarks. Very rich, a lot to dig into. You began by talking about the threat. Not simply being a threat that Japan faces, not simply that the United States faces, but that we face together with our European allies. You started by talking about the threat from the newly developed Chinese submarine launched nuclear missiles, the JL-3s. And you walked us through a very rich discussion, cross-domain discussion, ranging from the threat in outer space to the challenge in the artificial islands in the South China Sea to the human rights threat posed in Hong Kong in Xinjiang and also the threat to the people of Taiwan and the threat posed in the cyber domain. And it was a very rich presentation. Lots of questions to ask you. Thank you so much for those very thought-provoking remarks and also for the kind of remarks about Hudson Institute.
Let me begin by picking up on the Taiwan theme that you raised towards the end. You and Defense Minister Kishi are among Taiwan's best friends in the Japanese Diet. But as warm as the relationship is between the Japanese and Taiwanese people and as crucial as the defense of Taiwan is to the defense of Japan, the official relationship has very significant legal limitations. You hinted in your remarks about the fact that our children will look back at the decisions made in the 1970s about the one China policy and ask if it was wise or not. And I'm wondering how you see this. Do you see an evolution in Japanese-Taiwan relations occurring? How long will it take? How long over time will it take and how did the Japanese people sense the security threat of Taiwan is linked to their own security threat? Thank you.
Minister Nakayama: Thank you very much. Japan and Taiwan, it's a really close border. You told Kishi Nobuo, who is the defense minister of us, my boss, Kishi -san and I'm kind of a friend of Taiwan, but we are not friend of Taiwan. We are brother. We are family of Taiwan, more closer. So if something happens in Taiwan, it's directly related to the Okinawa Prefecture. And in Okinawa Prefecture, there is existence of the United States, the armed forces. We have Kadena Air Base. We have the U.S. Marine Corps base and another facilities, not just the Japanese Self Defense Forces and the Japanese citizens living in Okinawa, but also the United States military bases and facilities and also the families of the U.S., the people who are serving in the Okinawa for the entire whole world. So we have to really focusing on the Taiwan issue, which now they have threatening by the Chinese PLA.
And the last week, 28 fighter jets flew over from the Chinese continent towards Taiwan and they actually cross, sometimes cross borders of the Chinese territorial air and land and soil. And also, if it's too small in this map but here's Taiwan and this is the Pacific Ocean, this is the western side, which is the Chinese content, the Chinese fighter jet, PLA fighter jet coming from the continent of the China and also the battleship used to be exercising around this China-Taiwan Strait. But now they move the Pacific Ocean side even and they are exercising in the eastern part of the Taiwan. So this means they are trying to surround all the Taiwan islands, which is a very, if I'm a Taiwanese who living in Taiwan, maybe feel a lot of threat and stress from the exercise, even the exercising from the Chinese PLA activities.
And but also, on the other hand, the 1970s, one China policy already made by the senior members of the politics in both country actually and including the Chinese Beijing government. So how do you solve this issue? The one thing that we can do is we have to show that the deterrence towards China and not just China, but also the Russians, because they, as I told you, that they are doing their exercises together. So I think from the Taiwan point of view, this is my personal opinions, that I think the Taiwanese are really concerned and also the focusing on the two big countries collaborating and gave a lot of threats towards Taiwan. So what we can do is show the deterrence and also the something attack or the happening towards Taiwan, it's straight to relate to the not just Japan, but also the U.S.-Japan alliance even.
So please think about the geopolitically how it is really close to Taiwan Island and Okinawa Island. It's kind of like nose and eyes, this close. So please be careful and I really want the United States have to be more stronger, stronger and stronger. And in early days and maybe 15 years ago, Chinese PLA, if something happens between the United States, the armed forces, I think the U.S. forces can easily cover their powers. But right now, Chinese PLA has the big aircraft carrier and they are creating their own new battleships. They have, of course, the nuclear capabilities and stand up very strong leadership by Mr. Xi Jinping. So and they have aggressive, how to say, the thought and the will. So the perceived power of their country is getting stronger. So wake up, we have to wake up and we have to prepare the strange activity around the Taiwan.
Kenneth Weinstein: Thank you. And let me ask you. You talked in your remarks several times about the need to deter China. And I think there is a sense now in Japan that national security needs to move from defense to deterrence, that this is increasingly important for Japan. And the public discussion of Japan's future defense posture tends to focus more on inputs than on outputs and outcomes. And so there's a lot of focus on the 1% of GDP number that's certainly important. But what kinds of concrete capabilities are you and Minister Kishi putting in place? What does Japan need to feel then deployed to support its new tougher line on foreign policy as you move from defense to deterrence?
Minister Nakayama: Yes, as I told you, the classic type of warfare, we only have to protect the land, air and sea, only three domains. The warfare. But the right now we have to think adding the another warfare and the war fields called space and cyber and also electric in Japanese called the Denshi-sen, Electric Warfare. So we have a lot of warfare and domains more than six and plus fake news and internet, cyber intelligence and counterintelligence and also not just a big country, but on the other hand, there is some organization called Hamas, Hezbollah, even the Japan Red Army or lots of classic type of the terrorists or the new type of the terrorism is existing in this world right now. So we have to prepare when we think and we have to prepare for all of the those kind of activities. We have to try to increase the budget for the defense and also the intelligence and the interior issue even.
And right now, the ruling party called Liberal Democratic Party, they requested us to the Japanese government, "Please try to increase the budget of defense," they are requesting. Actually, our budget is that 50% of our budget for the defense is the salary of the Self Defense Force staff. So only 50% of the whole budget of defense is the we can buy some missile, we can buy some tanks. We have to R&D the next techniques or spin off and collaborating with private sectors or academia. So our budget are really limited. So that point of view we have to creating together and try to make it cost more low and also the sharing our capabilities and, how to say, working out the part how to protect. And also we are also trying to think about the standoff capability, about the missiles and also that defensive whole sky from the enemy's threat via sky.
And also we have to think about GPS technology for the future together, like the satellite constellation in the entire the earth, which is we have to protect from the HGV, the high speed new missiles, cruising type of missiles. And also it's like a pitching of the Japanese pitcher in the U.S. baseball field. Sometimes they throw a very big, very good ball and it's going to be curve suddenly. So those kind of a new type of missile, which we cannot so easily protect or detect. So the enemy creating the new techs so we have to create new defense tech. But cost efficiency is also needed and we have to try to make them understand from the voters, from the tax payers, their way of thinking and their concept and the opinions. It's very, very important. So we, the politicians and the government have to approach to the people of own citizens to make them understand what's happening in the world. And we have to hid the risk of the war.
I really surprised also on the trip by the DoS, invited as an international visitor program, I visited the Honolulu, the final destination and I thought that was lucky, but only the business. So I went the United States Army facility in Honolulu, Waikiki. There's Asia-Pacific Security Studies, the think tank runs by U.S. Army. And they actually inviting 41 countries at the time, including Chile, which countries surround the Pacific Ocean and the United States government invite the all the future golden eggs from the 41 countries. Diplomats, military officials and all the young people get together in Honolulu and the whole week and the weekend spend time together in three months in Honolulu. So I learned the United States government at that time, Indian officials and also the Pakistan officials both invited in Honolulu at the time. And the first time, Pakistan, India, it's not so good relations between the two. And one Indian official dropped a pen. The Pakistan never took it for him.
But three months, we have a weekend, they can do canoeing, surfing, barbecues, get together, talk together, showing our own way of thinking together and some time, maybe arguing and the fight with a conversation. But you remember when the India and also the Pakistan, the conflict happening over there. The both eggs becoming generals in the India and Pakistan at that time. So they called each other making hotlines together and prevent the war. So who make this peace, the United States and also the U.S Army, the think tank called the Asia-Pacific Security Studies. So I ask the head of the think tank at the time, what are you focusing on? And he said, we are aiming how to hedge the risk of the war is the answer from the Asia-Pacific security studies. And I personally really, how to say, attract my philosophy. And I think we, again, approach that kind of the approach to the world, to how to hit the risk of the war, because we already experienced one, two years of the pandemic and people had a lot of stress. The economy is a lot of debt and now the environment is the worst situation right now.
So somebody who is kind of like evil or a terrorist or the some bad, how to say, evil, try to attack or to make something profitable for them, we can feel it. But we have to we prepare for that kind of the worst situation or scenarios. So that's what I need for that. And actually, back to your question, and my answer is that we have to increasing the budget to how to hit the risk and the not attacking the enemy. But we have to protect our own citizens and the profit and our own property and the soils, our land, homeland. So and the free world, democratic world. So long answer and also sorry, again, that my English skill is not so good. If I am speaking Japanese, maybe I can say more good and better opinion. But I hope that you will catch my message.
Kenneth Weinstein: State Minister Nakayama, you're speaking very clearly. We get your message, you're speaking beautifully.
Minister Nakayama: Yes. Arigato, thank you very much.
Kenneth Weinstein: In the first defense budget, the Biden administration prioritize new technologies such as hypersonics, which you referred to earlier, missiles and defensive cyber operations, directed energy, low Earth orbit satellites, AI and even combat systems, autonomous vehicles. Some of which you mentioned Japan is working on and Japan is drawing on, its start-up sector in some cases, particularly on the satellite area. But given these next generation technologies, I think there is some fear in the United States that our allies, including Japan, are going to fall behind the U.S. military in these new capabilities. And it's going to be challenging to maintain interoperability if we're increasingly implying very different technologies and operational concepts. Can the JMOD maintain interoperability?
Minister Nakayama: Thank you very much. We are focusing and we are really interested in doing and the study and prepare for the interoperability between our allies, the United States, the armed forces between Japanese self-defense forces. And actually, we are buying a lot of fighter jets from the United States, lots of techniques from the United States and even the it's high price or not but we have to buy those kind of techniques and the fighter jet or whatever we need to protect our lives from the enemies. And also that the alliance between the US and Japan and the alliance between the humans who works inside of the militaries and self-defense forces, their capability is not one day you can make it. It's not instant. We doing lots of work every single day. And actually right now inside of the Japanese soil, U.S.-Japan exercising together in somewhere in this country. And actually next week I'm going to Hokkaido to watch their exercise, Japan-U.S. together in Hokkaido.
So those kind every single day collaboration between the United States and on behalf of the Japanese, the staff in MOD, I think interoperability is not the machine or machinery or mechanics, it's a human being. So we, the human and the United States soldiers and the Japanese self-defense forces staff, they are more synchronized together. And we know the cost efficiency is mutual profit. So we have to protect all our companies, private companies who are creating the arms or the armament. And the United States also have same issue so they need to be protect by the economy point of view too. So we have to more strongly collaborate and we share the profit. And also we have to focusing on the future, how we are going to manage and the marketing, even the private sector. Those people can get very good circles together to grow the protection from the enemies and keep the lives together and also the share of the market from the point of view of the economic private sector's views.
And then we can more invest to the future tech. For example, actually, the China and Russia are doing very good. They are friends. They are very good friends, I think. But on the other hand, they are creating their own missiles capability, their own submarine capability. They are sharing their knowledge together, even with academia, I guess, or R&D center, PhDs. And actually few of the PhDs in China, they study abroad in the United States like a special university, MIT, Harvard, Caltech, Stanford. Those very good universities actually educated them, few of them, I think. So you, the United States knows what the university taught them. So they are very skillful and they are very genius people.
So we have to more focusing on how to protect and not just protect, but how to hedge the risk. So I think the interoperability is not just the techniques, but first we need the trust between the humans and it learn from the human being and we are going to have some needs. And needs the target and the purpose, it's the machine and the mechanics and the techniques collaborating together. And we are going to think about the basically the geopolitics.
So the geopolitics point of view, now, United States, a very big, huge country and we are facing each other. But there is a big, big ocean called the Pacific Ocean, that the 50% western part of the Pacific Ocean, which is Honolulu here, the U.S. here, Japan here, Honolulu to Japan. This zone is becoming the Chinese and the Russians come in this zone. So the United States, the protection line is going to be backwards a little bit. So I think how to protect those kind of geopolitically concerned area, we have to use interoperability philosophy together, Japan and the U.S. together and even the Taiwan. They are making very good machines and they have the capability to manufacture it. So we, maybe our private sector also should order more lots of businesses meeting together including Taiwan, not just Japan and the United States. And so I think it will how to make the friendship league, friendship team of the democratic country will solve the problem. So don't think just as one, we have to think we are not one. We have our friends and we share the profit. Yes, that is my thought.
Kenneth Weinstein: Excellent. That's a great answer and very inspiring. I've got one last question, because we're actually over time but your remarks have been so fascinating.
Minister Nakayama: Thank you.
Kenneth Weinstein: We've seen both the Biden administrations and the Abe Shinzo governments reaffirm publicly the importance of the American nuclear umbrella for the alliance. That being said, today in the U.S., there is a debate about procuring a nuclear armed submarine launched cruise missile. You spoke earlier about the threat posed by China's new JL-3 nuclear missiles. And as of today, the U.S. Navy is skeptical about funding a nuclear armed submarine launch cruise missile. But many on Capitol Hill support it as necessary to enhance the American extended deterrent. Without it, there is a possibility that China, Russia and North Korea could endanger Japan, South Korea, Taiwan with nuclear armed missiles. But as of now, the Biden administration, at least rhetorically, has adopted the posture that the U.S. shouldn't use nuclear weapons if the U.S. itself is not attacked. Without engaging you in American domestic politics, how do you view this issue in Japan?
Minister Nakayama: Yes, I think it's a very difficult question to answer it. We have to learn from the history. I'm married. I have my wife in my constituency. I lived in the same room, under the roof, and we love each other. But before I get married I thought justice inside of my house is one. But after I get married it wasn't. Justice, there's two justices inside of my house, under the roof. One justice, husband justice, the other justice, wife's justice. So I learned from the marriage how to understand my lovely wife's opinion, lovely wife's justice. And I want my wife to understand my justice. So I try to not fight against my wife. But on the other hand, my wife, I want my wife to understand, honest and clearly, my opinion. And so, this is the balance of the house rules inside my family.
And if you look at the Japan or U.S. and China or Russia, I think it's kind of like strategically saying we have our justice. They have their own justice, just their way of thinking is different. And how to manage inside of the whole world, the big, big top of the roof, and that we live under the roof together and we don't want more fight against each other like 70s or 70 years ago because we attacked Pearl Harbor. And Pearl Harbor memories is still remembering for the U.S. citizens and learn from the history. If you go to the Israel, you learn Holocaust and Holocaust Museum exist in all over the world. We learned history. And in Japan we attack the Pearl Harbor but the end of the war, the U.S. dropped two bombs, nuclear bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and we lost lots of lives. And we were born in 1970 so we don't experience that tragedy, even Pearl Harbor, even Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
But what we have to do is we learn from the history and we have to hit the risk of the war, what the United States, the Army think and says. And this is a very important. So how to use or how to react using the power of the nuclear weapons capability. Before that, we have to think how to manage the counterpart of the another world, their justice is where and which and the what their needs. So when we use options of the military capability, before that we have to do the diplomat foreign policy, diplomatic relations. It's more needed and otherwise if now the capability of the nuclear weapons is much, much more stronger compared to Hiroshima or Nagasaki. If some country shoot the torpedo from their continent towards Honolulu, that missiles torpedoes, the warheads compared to Hiroshima, it's 200 times more than Hiroshima. So I been to Hiroshima before and I went to the museum before, from that experience and the perspective, if 200 times more strong atomic bombs or torpedoes or missiles, warheads towards Honolulu, I think Honolulu will be erased from the map.
So we have to think before using those powers, we have to think how to stop it. So I think we have to discuss about these issue, is very important of course. And I have my opinion about the nuclear umbrella issue, of course. But before that discussion, I want to discuss more peacefully way to provide and protect how we manage the big roof and inside of that, our house. So that's why I told you a story. We cannot get divorced. Lots of people divorced but we cannot actually when you think about the map of the geopolitics of the world and the world economy or the internet, especially. There is no border. So once you effect, maybe in South Africa or the North Pole even can get affect from somewhere in downtown LA or the New York. So we connected already in 21st century. So your problem is my problem, your profit is my profit. So those kind of the way of thinking, we'll need it.
And we the Japan and the Japanese people try to, how to say, erase all the nuclear arms from the world, I guess. But there is two types of the way of thinking. The nuclear weapons afford by the democratic country or the freedom country, nuclear weapons are by the communist country or some dictatorship country. You can see, it's the same arm, same technology, same risk. But who is going to control this arms? It's very important. So that's why we are tackling on the issue about the North Korea. I was really surprised, but I was really, that was one of the big one of the big challenge when Donald Trump visited Kim Jong-un directly and bilaterally, straight speak between the North Korea and the United States as a president.
And I thought he moved Kim Jong-Un. But unfortunately now, even the U.S. offer to the North Korea about the North Korea respond is not so good mood. But I think never give up. We, the country, the United States and Japan, the democratic country, have to approach peacefully together toward even the North Korea. We have a missile situation, we have a nuclear weapon situation and we have the adoptee's issues. And so we have a concern together. And so that's why we have to approach together. And finally, I'd like to say how to make a discussion about those kind of the nuclear umbrellas is if we talk about this, I think the counterpart of the another world, we're going to talk the same way.
So we have to show and the corona virus divided everybody in the world. But watching and then get together immediately and talk in person face to face and no more hiding the secrets but the threat is mutual threat for the both side. So we never again the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, another Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the world. So I want to stop those kind of tragedy in the future. So that is my opinion. So thank you very much.
Kenneth Weinstein: Thank you very much on those incredibly articulate words. I just want to thank you, State Minister Nakayama for addressing us. You're one of the rising stars in security circles in Japan. And all of us at Hudson Institute can see why we're proud to consider you part of the Hudson Institute family and look forward to welcoming you to Washington when travel begins again. And thank you so much for your insights.
Minister Nakayama: Thank you very much, Ken.